Posted By Maximus on 22 Feb 2012 10:35 AM
I have probably in the last year or so noticed that all my local Barnes & Noble bookstores rarely, if ever, carry the Outlanders series.

Maybe its because they only carry decent books...




Jim

Jim, put away those claws, lol.

I have to admit that yesterday, after reading 120 pages of Outlanders Infestation Cubed, I gave up. It just lost my interest.

The twin storylines had good premises, albeit ones I've kinda read before, Domi's storyline just seemed to lead to nowhere. She and Lakesh were in Vegas, running around bombed out hotels and battling snakemen. They meet up with who I think would be revealed as Quavell's daughter. Domi was way too friendly and easy to trust. A lot of over-explanations here, which drew me out of the story.

Then the other storyline with Kane and Grant with some beautiful spanish woman warrior. No Baptiste? I don't think she was in this book at all.

But here Kane and Grant are, battling in the swamps of Florida, with way too much 'telling and not showing' story. Lots of over explanations. Kane goes right into a battle with unknown foes, and even though he's outnumbered, and has his sin eater ready to rock and roll, doesn't use it?!

OK, Ok, he wants one alive to interrogate. But still, he couldn't just wound one? He has to take his life for granted so easily? I dunno.

I tried. I really, really tried.

Infestation Cubed is a Douglas Wojtowicz book, says it all...

I managed to read about 50 pages of his first OL book, Pantheon of Vengeance, which he touted here as being the most Mark Ellis OL since Mark Ellis picked up a pen and it was total sh!te. I really couldn't read anymore of it it was that bad. So I fully understand you not being able to finish this one.

Jim

Oh, OK, so its not just me? I only keep trying them every once in a while because I miss the series.

It is weird that Deathlands gets solid writers, but Outlanders gets 2 that can't seem to capture the essence of it.

I haven't seen any OL books at my local Barnes and Noble in at least two years...about the same time Graphic Audio stopped making OL audio books. I don't think it's a coincidence.

So what does that mean? They are not selling as well as DL?

Probably. The quality just isn't there.

Based on a couple of facts I know of, my educated guess is Dl currently outsells OL.

Yeah, I think you are correct.

Although, I have to say, the latest OL book cover looks cool. Brigid Baptiste looks like Krysty Wroth shooting her blaster.

Posted By Maximus on 02 Mar 2012 09:29 PM
Yeah, I think you are correct.

Although, I have to say, the latest OL book cover looks cool. Brigid Baptiste looks like Krysty Wroth shooting her blaster.

Wash your mouth out with soapy water now...

Brigid looking like Krysty, pah, Brigid is (in my mind) way better in the looks dept than Krysty.

Jim

Hahahahha!


I'm still a Krysty Wroth fan. At least she likes to give Ryan some sweetness here and again.

Kane and Brigid were sexless. I would be gettin' me some Baptiste every chance I could.

Posted By Maximus on 03 Mar 2012 10:27 PM
Hahahahha!


I'm still a Krysty Wroth fan. At least she likes to give Ryan some sweetness here and again.

Kane and Brigid were sexless. I would be gettin' me some Baptiste every chance I could.

Kane and Brigid had more "sex" going on than Ryan and Krysty's fumbles ever will. The way Mark wrote the characterisation said more of their feelings towards each other than 200 filler words from a 70's porn story could ever convey.

Jim

Jim, I can't see how you can make that kinda statement.

Ryan and Krysty didn't take forever to see what they wanted.

Insofar as I can tell, Kane and Brigid haven't even yet to start dating! Sure, I quit reading the series, but even the one I tried recently, still had them not really being an item.

They only made love in another casement. (If memory serves me correctly.)

I like the old style of writing that Laurence James and Mark Ellis began with in the early books of both series. Sex wasn't a dirty word, and it was used liberally.

I just could never understand how Kane could go on all these world-hopping adventures, and always seem to save or meet beautiful women of all varieties - but yet, never make a move on 'em! 

I wonder if Mark is still around and can answer the question direct from the authors mouth -so to speak...

What was the situation between Kane and Brigid at the close of play in the CANON world of OL? I know you (sadly) left the series behind a long while back but as the creator and shaper of the world you are the only person that can answer this topic with any true conviction.

Is there more going on behind the scenes with them than we got to know?

How about your views on Ryan & Krysty?

Jim

Kane and Brigid are professionals. For all intents and purposes, they're soldiers. They have a job to do, missions to carry out.

They know the feelings they have for one another are so intense that if they give in to them, then their effectiveness as part of a team is diminished, if not ruined completely.

Don Pendleton once said that love was the reward for a life well-lived. Kane and Brigid are trying to live their lives well in order to justify their existence so they can earn the reward of love when their mission is completed.

On a more practical level, I kept Brigid and Kane apart romantically because historically, every time a man-woman professional partnership in a series becomes something else, that series jumps the shark.

Inasmuch as the books following Dark Goddess are not canonical (some might say they're spurious), Kane and Brigid's relationship remains essentially the same as it was.

Just because most of the Outlanders books I wrote weren't structured in such a way to allow the story to crash to a halt so I could cram five or six pages of poorly executed porn in there ala' DL shouldn't be construed that Kane didn't have sex with other women from time to time. I implied as much in several books.

Posted By Jax2 on 16 Mar 2012 01:19 PM


cram five or six pages of poorly executed porn in there ala' DL

This thread of criticism makes no sense to me.

If a series is and always has been grubby and hamfisted, why should anyone expect the "romance" it includes to be any different? (Pilgrimage to Hell, among other things, featured Doc being forced to have serial sex with hogs!) I always tried to execute the "love scenes" in my DLs, whether they occurred in the backseat of a burned-out subcompact sedan, on a pile of moldy cardboard under a fallen overpass, or alongside a brimful latrine, in a way that was sensitive to the series' underlying philosophy and themes.

I think Maximus started the ball rolling with his comment:

Kane and Brigid were sexless. I would be gettin' me some Baptiste every chance I could.

Following on from that I thought it was -and from a personal interest point of view, to ask Mark what the situation was in HIS OL world between Kane & Brigit at the point at which he finished writing.

It was not meant as a beating of the drum for an all out attack. So much for trying once again to get some conversation going here.

Jim

Posted By AP on 16 Mar 2012 04:06 PM

Posted By Jax2 on 16 Mar 2012 01:19 PM


cram five or six pages of poorly executed porn in there ala' DL

This thread of criticism makes no sense to me.

If a series is and always has been grubby and hamfisted, why should anyone expect the "romance" it includes to be any different? (Pilgrimage to Hell, among other things, featured Doc being forced to have serial sex with hogs!) I always tried to execute the "love scenes" in my DLs, whether they occurred in the backseat of a burned-out subcompact sedan, on a pile of moldy cardboard under a fallen overpass, or alongside a brimful latrine, in a way that was sensitive to the series' underlying philosophy and themes.

Calling something what it is isn't necessarily a criticism.

In the DL novels I wrote, especially Nightmare Passage, the story followed the formula and crashed to a halt so as to interject the five or six pages of poorly executed porn.

Outlanders was a different animal...as the series creator, I felt no compunction to follow the grubby and hamfisted DL formula. So I didn't.

Hey, I think I remember that scene of Krysty and Ryan postcoital cuddling next to the overflowing latrine. It was very touching...pure poetry.

 

Posted By Jax2 on 16 Mar 2012 08:19 PM

Hey, I think I remember that scene of Krysty and Ryan postcoital cuddling next to the overflowing latrine. It was very touching...pure poetry.

 

Mark,
You're making me blush.  (Why should Chuck be the only one embarrassed by a compliment?) 

As you know, I modeled each of my DLs on the works of Shakespeare--the book in question obviously drew heavily upon Two Turds of Verona ... and of course, Romeo and Toilette.

Don't know about you, but I find these discussions of mechanics and craft refreshing.
AP

When writing my DLs, I was heavily influenced by The Taming of the Poo...

It seems you and I have much more in common with Stephenie Meyer than the casual reader might suspect.

Did I ever tell you I can see her house from here?

One of these days when I find the time (and the inclination), I'll write up the genesis of what became the Outlanders series....there's nobody left at Gold Eagle who was a part of it, so as the creator I'm entitled to the final word on its history.

I always remember how Eva, the former DL/OL editor, reported to me how a couple of editorial folks were very dismayed by Brigid--they were expecting another mewling "oh, lover" Krysty clone and instead I gave them a heroine who could've carried her own series.

That attitude is particularly ironic in hindsight because without Brigid blazing the trail, it's highly unlikely Gold Eagle would've thought a female lead could carry her own series...and there wouldn't have been a Rogue Angel.

A lot of us wish you would post about the genesis of the OL series. That would be cool.

Posted By Daniel on 21 Mar 2012 03:38 PM
A lot of us wish you would post about the genesis of the OL series. That would be cool.

You can add me to the list of "Please do"'s

Jim

Yup, me too.

I should get around to it..I'm the only person who actually has all the inside details...and not to mention that in a little over month, it'll be 15 years since Exile to Hell appeared...the fact that series is still going is pretty much a testament to the durability of my characters and concepts.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the Outlanders series is the last of its kind...an ongoing midlist mass-market paperback series that was creatted by one writer instead of the usual editorial committee.

Hmm...I guess I'll start the history with these words:

"Without The Wild, Wild West there wouldn't have been an Outlanders."

Perhaps you should leave it until the anniversary and then post it. I really cant believe that the first OL book was that long ago. It is a real pity you still don't have the helm on it, or could have pulled the plug when the series reached its canonical end.

Jim

Posted By Jax2 on 16 Mar 2012 08:19 PM

Hey, I think I remember that scene of Krysty and Ryan postcoital cuddling next to the overflowing latrine. It was very touching...pure poetry.

 

 What Book was that, Scavvie of the Week in Playboy just aint doing it for me and well you know

Posted By Jax2 on 22 Mar 2012 02:03 PM

"Without The Wild, Wild West there wouldn't have been an Outlanders."

I've been watching the DVDs of the first season of Wild, Wild West and in the commentary Robert Conrad mentions one of the producers always liked to have three things in the show...a strong villain, a gorgeous woman, and something bizarre.

 Sounds like Outlanders to me!

That was definitely my philosophy in regards to writing Outlanders...or anything for that matter.

But actually...how I ended up writing OL--writing for Gold Eagle period--was because the imprint had been offered the literary rights to The Wild, Wild West.

The then-executive editor, Feroze Mohammed, contacted me about writing a four book series based on the show due to the comic mini-series I had written to generally good reviews a few years before.

http://milehighcomics.com...ssue=95520999904%204

Feroze wasn't aware of the comic series...I believe Will Murray mentioned it and me to him.

But the deal for a WWW novel series fell through...so when I created Outlanders, I added the Sin-Eater in the forearm holster as a homage to Jim West's sleeve derringer.

And of course...there's Sindri, who I always pictured as a bit more in proportion version of Michael Dunn.