I agree with everything you wrote.

But, reading all these books back-to-back, you will burn out faster, and see all the issues you mentioned. 

I actually like a break between books, unless it was one that was outstanding. Or, like some of the authors have done well: trilogy's or duologies. That hasn't been done since Alan Phillipson's fantastic Xilbaba storyline.

The other side effect of going through the books so quickly is that I now say "Fire Blast!" and "Dark Night!" more often than I should.

The other side effect of going through the books so quickly is that I now say "Fire Blast!" and "Dark Night!" more often than I should.

Posted By Ithaqua on 11/16/2012 1:13:09 PM
Well played British Bloke.

I like this new member.

Welcome aboard you insightful, intelligent, and not afraid to type your honest feelings on the DL series. There are not enough of us here.

All your points are valid. Since you are only on book #80, I am glad to inform you, that you have some GREAT DL books coming your way soon that will somewhat surpass the original. (May the great and vastly talented author of Laurence James rest in peace!)

But what are your thoughts on the Outlanders series? I suppose you haven't gotten around to trying those?

Posted By Ithaqua on 11/18/2012 2:22:35 AM

...Oh and having Doc sex up pigs?

...Doc was messed up enough by losing his family, throwing in the pig sex was just gratutious and way over board.

..the way Lori Quint was written out of the stories seemed rushed and really out of character. To have her turned into a total cheating bitch out of the blue just didn't wash with me, it made no psychological sense.

Greetings,

Doc and the pig thing was put in by Laurence to show just how sick, perverted and Sadistic Strasser was. Doc arrived in DL from the past, a past that was not his and into a world he understood less than the one he had been passed on from. He was mixed up, unstable and as a result an ideal "fool" for Strasser to act out his sick ideals on.

As for Lori, she was the result of a last minute rewrite by Laurence after submitting the original draft and being told by the powers that be that she had to go and in that book. Laurence had some interesting ideas for the group that GE just ignored and forbid him from doing. Had he been allowed to continue with his ideas -and had he not got ill and had to retire from writing, DL as we know it would have been totally different to what is now is.

Jim

I think the 'pig thing' was gross, but it didn't turn me off to the series. I always expected, and at times, was surprised at the carnage and sickness - but thats what I expect in a cruel and twisted world such as this one.

That's why they don't call it 'Semi-cruel and sadistic Lands.' 

What changes, if he were allowed, would Laurence James have done, then?

You are right. 82 was written first.

And another and most big of unfortunates is : Alan doesn't pen DL anymore.

But he left with a HUGE finale! 

Ithaqua,

Thanks for the kind words. As to my leaving DL after ten years and GE after 25, all things good and bad must end. Before I wrote the Xibalba books I was feeling burned out and trapped (ghosting for GE is a hand-to-mouth situation because of the low pay), and rather than write books I didn't care about—or worse, books that might shame me—I decided to pull the plug after the duology and find another job, which I did in short order. I've never felt sorry about the decision. I'm making a solid (not borderline) middle class wage, and the work (developmental editing other people's books) is much easier: I can even do it while listening to Sportstalk radio (Go 'Hawks!). I have a lot to be grateful for today.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Hawks, eh? You wouldn;t happen to be in the Seattle area would you? I'm about 30 miles north of there but moving closer next month.

It's a shame they didn;t have the companions working from a base of operations. Had the series been mine to run that's one of the first things I would have done. It would have given them a purpose, also instead of killing off every nice/useful character they come across they could have started their own low key, high functioning hidden ville. Maybe like the one John Galt had going in Atlas Shrugged, of course a DL version.

Hawks, eh? You wouldn;t happen to be in the Seattle area would you? I'm about 30 miles north of there but moving closer next month.

It's a shame they didn;t have the companions working from a base of operations. Had the series been mine to run that's one of the first things I would have done. It would have given them a purpose, also instead of killing off every nice/useful character they come across they could have started their own low key, high functioning hidden ville. Maybe like the one John Galt had going in Atlas Shrugged, of course a DL version.

Although after over 25 years of DL, I still like the mystery aspect of the unknown jump factor.

I suppose that by now they could have figured it out, and developed a base of operations, (perhaps the blueprint of Cerberus?), but I'd like either a spin-off series or just a HUGE leap to the gigantic elephant in the room - chron jumping.

This could be utilized until the cows come home.

Posted By Maximus on 12/6/2012 11:30:38 PM
Yeah, and my eyes glaze over when the writer starts telling us that Mildred was once an olympic shooter, yada, yada, yada for the millionth time.

Well, every new book has got to be someone's first experience with the series, right? I don't mind brief torrents of back story, so long as it's not too long and doesn't detract from the scene at hand. 

And while I've got the floor, so to speak, I have to know which novel the whole "Doc sexing pigs" thing is from. That's just too bizarre to ignore, though I'm sure it was added for a legitimate plot reason, and not just an experiment in exploitation. (I'm fairly new to Gold Eagle, and my collection doesn't have missing pieces so much as it has cavernous black holes, vast expanses of nothingness just waiting to be filled, which is why I don't possess a more encyclopedic knowledge of past novels.)

Posted By Maximus on 12/6/2012 11:30:38 PM
Yeah, and my eyes glaze over when the writer starts telling us that Mildred was once an olympic shooter, yada, yada, yada for the millionth time.

Posted By Maximus on 12/6/2012 11:30:38 PM
Yeah, and my eyes glaze over when the writer starts telling us that Mildred was once an olympic shooter, yada, yada, yada for the millionth time.

Well, every new book has got to be someone's first experience with the series, right? I don't mind brief torrents of back story, so long as it's not too long and doesn't detract from the scene at hand. 

And while I've got the floor, so to speak, I have to know which novel the whole "Doc sexing pigs" thing is from. That's just too bizarre to ignore, though I'm sure it was added for a legitimate plot reason, and not just an experiment in exploitation. (I'm fairly new to Gold Eagle, and my collection doesn't have missing pieces so much as it has cavernous black holes, vast expanses of nothingness just waiting to be filled, which is why I don't possess a more encyclopedic knowledge of past novels.)

Posted By Maximus on 12/6/2012 11:30:38 PM
Yeah, and my eyes glaze over when the writer starts telling us that Mildred was once an olympic shooter, yada, yada, yada for the millionth time.

Posted By Maximus on 12/6/2012 11:30:38 PM
Yeah, and my eyes glaze over when the writer starts telling us that Mildred was once an olympic shooter, yada, yada, yada for the millionth time.

Well, every new book has got to be someone's first experience with the series, right? I don't mind brief torrents of back story, so long as it's not too long and doesn't detract from the scene at hand. 

And while I've got the floor, so to speak, I have to know which novel the whole "Doc sexing pigs" thing is from. That's just too bizarre to ignore, though I'm sure it was added for a legitimate plot reason, and not just an experiment in exploitation. (I'm fairly new to Gold Eagle, and my collection doesn't have missing pieces so much as it has cavernous black holes, vast expanses of nothingness just waiting to be filled, which is why I don't possess a more encyclopedic knowledge of past novels.)

Posted By Maximus on 12/6/2012 11:30:38 PM
Yeah, and my eyes glaze over when the writer starts telling us that Mildred was once an olympic shooter, yada, yada, yada for the millionth time.

Well, every new book has got to be someone's first experience with the series, right? I don't mind brief torrents of back story, so long as it's not too long and doesn't detract from the scene at hand. 

And while I've got the floor, so to speak, I have to know which novel the whole "Doc sexing pigs" thing is from. That's just too bizarre to ignore, though I'm sure it was added for a legitimate plot reason, and not just an experiment in exploitation. (I'm fairly new to Gold Eagle, and my collection doesn't have missing pieces so much as it has cavernous black holes, vast expanses of nothingness just waiting to be filled, which is why I don't possess a more encyclopedic knowledge of past novels.)

Posted By Ithaqua on 12/26/2012 11:27:18 PM
Ok, I don;t really remember the book...I'm going through 2-3 a week now but in one book Jak throws one of his, say it with me now "LEAF BLADED THROWING KNIVES" 200 yards! Let me say that again...TWO HUNDRED YARDS! I have thrown knives, I have thrown a lot of things, I have even thrown one of those disk things that go forever, I don't think I have thrown anything 200 yards.

Oh yes I recall that one and i also recall several of us having a good laugh over that when it first appeared.

 Jim

You both have solid points. Ron is absolutely correct.

And the other person has made solid points too. Yeah, the companions have been making stupid choices for some time now. No reason to jump sometimes. Taking stupid chances when they don't need to. And on and on and on...

The problem is: Multiple writers. Which is both a blessing and a curse.

No continuity with multiple writers. But sometimes a new writer comes around and shows himself to be so damn talented in writing a post-holocaust adventure, that us readers can forget the last few crappy, half-assed ones.

A good editor would point out these flaws to the writer. Have them pen a way for the companions to have a REASON to jump or leave a perfectly lovely, hidden and outfitted redoubt or ville. 

We know that the series has to continue, so they leave or jump. But you are right. They need a 'final destination' to reach for. They have been looking for that 'idyllic locale' long enough - and have found it quite a few times! - but leave anyway.

Posted By Ithaqua on 1/10/2013 12:37:00 AM


Maybe now is the time the series actually tries to build in some continuity, like they had in the early days. I vote that they make jumps to find people and resources to start building a new just world. Set up a base, make it grow, get refugees, fight off invaders and cold hearts, find people with talent and those who would help make that vision happen. At this point the companions have seen and done too much to just be a slack jawed hicks at the mat trans' mercy. Anyone agree?

Sounds like you should read Outlanders, starting from the beginning.

Well said, Ron!

I'll bet you're right on the money. 

To what Ron wrote about one author having a planned story arc: Depending on 'which' author that would be, that could be either extremely awesome...or extremely horrendous.

My vote would be for Chuck Rogers. In just two amazing books, he's more than proven he has the writing cajones to take this sometimes tired 'ol DL series to a new level. Both in story concept and vision, insofar as one author could do in a somewhat long story-arc.

The books obviously sale, or GE would not have made more of them per year. Greenbacks are the bottom line in any business. But I'd much rather have less and better quality any day of the week.

In my opinion, the best DL by far in 2012 was Hell Road Warriors. Although 4 of them were written by Victor Milan, and 1 by Andy Boot. (Which was the worst stinker of the year, and pretty much the entire series, as voted by us.) So Nick Polatta or John Helfers didn't get a vote, due to them not having typed a DL last year. Shame. I really liked Helfers twin books. He more than proved he has serious talent and a bright future in DL. Hope to see more of his work.

Posted By Ron Miles on 1/10/2013 1:32:08 PM


The basic problem is that with a publishing rate of six books per year, no single author can reliably crank out that many stories by themselves. From a basic logistical standpoint it takes a minimum of two authors, and more likely three or four, to maintain that kind of publishing schedule. Deadlines are a serious issue, and if you don't have a full stable of authors who can consistently hit the deadlines (which unfortunately is not really the case currently), a publisher cannot commit to that kind of tight story continuity. And so, we don't have it.

Ron, you say that writing six novels a year would be difficult for any author to accomplish, but Laurence James did just that, year after year. And so did Mark Ellis with the Outlanders series, and at a time when the word count for each book was bigger. Sure, the closest thing we've seen lately is Vic Milan's impressive string of four consecutive novels, but I really think that a focused and dedicated author can write half a dozen solid books per year. I don't know how far in advance novels are completed before their publication, but given a nice head start before a deadline, one of these authors (preferably Chuck Rogers, if his contract would allow for so many books) could definitely craft a compelling narrative arc.

Even if Gold Eagle doesn't want one single author for the entire series, why not dedicate an entire year to a single writer's story arc? After his six novels, the baton is passed to the next writer, who pens six in a row, etc. This way we'd get to see more compelling stories spread out across a few books, and an arc which could come to a natural close, instead of cramming a conclusion into the final paragraph of the book because the editors decided to emphasize action over a coherent story. 

With the technology available these days, it's easier than ever for authors to be able to communicate and compare notes and whatnot.

Heck, with skype alone, it would be cake for authors and editors to have a conference to hammer out continuity and story developments, and fact checking and so forth.

RPGJunkie, the novel is Pilgrimage to Hell.  There are also numerous times in various other books where he recalls what he was forced to do and kinda "drifts" from his "normal" demeanor.

Posted By applesauce on 3/12/2013 8:45:11 AM
I have now read the first 39 books. I am reading 3 or 4 a week. What drives me nuts more than anything else is there not a single backpack in all of deathlands sheeeeeesh. You would think they would all use one packed with ammo food and water. It is like the most basic thing even the most stupid person would do. Okay and they have worn the same clothes all be it one change, they have to be falling off. Yes I am female and every time they shower or swim then climb back into their filthy clothes I cringe LOL

applesauce

Welcome aboard,

It is nice to see another girlie around the board, it will save wordsmith feeling all alone...

The group don't carry backpacks (at least in the first 30 odd books) as the original writer (Laurence James) had the view that "they who travel light travel fastest". I discussed this at length with him and his view was six people are not going to fight a war so why force them to carry a small countries weight in ammo?. I suggested that they take bags and boxes of ammo / food into the Mat trans with them just in case where they arrived was empty, again he knocked this back as a lazy writers crutch and too easy to fall back on.

A few years later he did admit that it was the powers that be at GE that put constraints on him, not just with back packs -although JB and Mildred now carry "bottomless, when it suits" bags with stuff in, but with changing weapons, allowing them to set up a base of operations insttead of jumping at random and several other things.

I agree on the clothes point, but I guess a lot of the DL demographic that read the books would sooner read about heads popping or Ryan & Krysty having sex than the group finding new pants!!!

Jim

Jeez, Jim! They change their freakin' clothes frequently. If the writers don't make clothing changes for a few books,, I add the info! Doc found a new set of clothes in an old hotel; Krysty had a jumpsuit for a couple of boks, then went to black jeans and a T-shirt; Ryan and J.B. changed clothes here and there. Mildred went from fatigues to jeans and a T-shirt, back to fatigues a time or two.They have to keep the basics, as I'm not allowed to dick around with the blue boots, bearskin coat--that magically appears and disappears from book to book, fedora, scarf that also ppears and disappears from book to book, Jak's camou jacket and the like. And nowsadays they have backpacks, at least from time to time. They have to tote that endless supply of ammo somehow. They have to leave the backpacks if they're on the run, but they eventually find and sock others.

Edited to provide more info.

Definitely pesky.

I'd like to see Krysty's Western boots bite the dust, as they surely hamper her ability to sprint. J.B.'s fedora needs to be replaced, as it's well past its prime, but there is a book coming up that tells of how he got the hat, so the sentimental value must keep it around for a while. Maybe i'll ask the powers that be if he can ditch the hat and get a bowler! Hahahaha!

It is like eating before a jump when they all puke. You would think they would work out it was better to take the food and eat after the jump.

What's wrong with the fedora? Sure, it's filthy, sweat-stained, and hasn't been washed since the long winters, but it keeps the sun off his face.

That sounds like my trusty baseball cap I wear when out walking the hills, its not been washed in years, is sun bleached and the peak is broken but I still wear it with pride.

Jim: Doc didn't lose his - he threw it away and bid it good riddance.

Well, in addition to being all those things, the fedora has a few bullet holes. If the fedora ever was replaced, it would be replaced by another fedora. My father wore one for years. I love them.

Another thing that bugs the hell out of me is when some authors write that Ryan and the companions get caught flatfooted like greenhorns.

Again, I am not picking on Rik Hoskin and his latest book, in which this happened - yest again in this series! - in which the companions are in enemy territory, are supposedly on full alert, but then a large group 'sneaks up' on them out of the blue, as if this is the companion's 1st outing.

Even the illustrious Laurence James did this, and it drove me nuts then. Still doing at book 100+ is damn near maddening. It shouldn't have happened at Book #1. C'mon, authors! Are u kidding me?

With all due major respect and kudos to all authors, please, please, please don't write in another 'caught flatfooted' scene again! At this juncture, every single member of the companions should have the professional experience of a grade A special forces soldier. Hell, with all the action they've gone through, they all should fight, fuck, hunt, gather, and do every specialized thing that each possess. Ryan should be able to track and recce just as good or better than Jak, for instance.

What is the actual time span between the first book and the latest one. I am curious only being up to book 30. There had to be more than a year for the baby to be born, but beyond that i can not work it out as Dean doesnt seem to have aged.

I do follow the eat when you can, but I am talking when they know they are about to jump and sit down to eat rather than taking it with them. I think to survive you should be practical and getting actual use out of the food makes sense rather than puking it up. How puke filled is that room now LOL I do not see good house keeping top of the list,

It is good to know they use backpacks in latter books,

applesauce

There are so many things on the "bugs me" list at this point that I'll need to make a proper summary later.  So many things mentioned in this thread are right in there  

I too have read all the books in recent years.  Book 1 to book 90 as of today.  I've read them over the last 3-4 years or so.  So when you have that kind of perspective it can be a real chore to stomach the kind of lack of continuity and "normal" characterization we often see from the various authors.

 It should be a requirement that if you are going to author a book in a series like this that you have read "most" of the series.  Not necessarily every single book, but at least be interested in the series enough that you have read a good portion of it.

Some of these authors come in and you can tell they "might" have read part of a book.  The take on characterizations is so bad completely kills the stories.  Book 88 by Rik Hoskin was soo atrocious in terms of character behavior, interaction, and abilities, that I was BARELY able to finish it.  The story and idea behind it was actually good.  But its execution with the characters was absolutely terrible.

 A major "bug me" point as well is the handful of books that weave a good to great story all way through but then in the last 20-30 pages the author (or editor ?) basically strips the story to a barebones summary, that jumps around with little continuity, and an almost insulting series of events that "wrap up" the story.  The ending of Time Castaways almost pissed me off because of this sloppiness.

I do see where you are coming from in regards to the authors not reading enough of the books.  So saying they read "most" of the books is overly ambitious. I guess the statement just portrays my disbelief that a LOT of the books written have such a poor grasp of what would seem fundamental character traits, behaviors, abilities, and often setting / background qualities. 

 But my point is they should have read a significant number of the books.  At least 10 ?  A good enough number to have a solid grasp of what they are working with.  At least 2 of the books I have read were so far out of touch with characters and setting that it was exceedingly difficult to finish them. 

 I learned to accept the change to an episodic nature, and therefore a lack of continuity and overall story progression.  But the lack of fundamentals makes it difficult in some books.

I think it is reasonable to expect an author to approach the material with respect, and certainly reasonable to expect them to have read at least a couple of representative books. It is up to the editors to ensure that the style and characterizations are in bounds. That's about it.

Some of the books it seems like this didn't happen, except on the most cursory level.

 I realize now that in that publishing situation, things were not setup to accommodate consistency and continuity.  But knowing that still doesn't make some of those books any easier to read

 That's why my comments went into the the "things that bug me" thread, lol.

Oh also:

Thanks for the reply   I'm really happy to have found this site and forums.  It has helped me immensely in understanding things that didn't make sense.  Plus its essentially the only avenue available (that I've found) that allows me even a small chance to discuss / learn about / see insights into what I've read.  Essentially share the experience.

 My only regret is that I didn't find and read the books earlier so I could have engaged in many of the discussions that have come and gone over the years here.

 This is absolutely no knock at all to the site or yourself, but it seems like I missed the "hay day" of Deathlands interest and participation.  My timing to experience the Deathlands is out of synch for participating with the community.  Stuff I'm just experiencing I'm guessing most have long moved on from and / or long forgotten about

I'm finding myself posting in really old threads because of it.  So if reviving old threads is frowned upon here (as it can be on some websites), let me know and I'll create new threads for topics.

So again, thanks !

Where to start on things that bug me! So many things, so little time. If I hear one more time about Doc going in and out of insanity I think that I will join him being bonkers. For a country that is so dangerous why would anyone keep on letting him stay with the group when he alone accounts for so many times of opening his mouth and putting everyone at risk. Then we have him talking like he is still in the 1800 when in reality he would eventually start to talk like the others (his speeches and rambling are IRRATATING TO NO END). Then we have Wyrthe who keeps on crying about her father that was hung by the towns people and how many times has her mouth opened to the point that Ryan has to keep telling her SHUT THE HELL UP, YOUR GOING TO GET US KILLED. Then we have Ryans spastic/moron son, who thinks that everyday is walking in the park event (his learning curve is nonexistent). Remember on book where they had all their blasters just laying around and when they needed them they had to dig through piles of clothes and garbage to find them.

Enough for now, I am sure that I will get all kinds of grief over this but fear this I will be back to tear apart something that started so good but fell apart even faster then anyone ever imagined.

Where to start on things that bug me! So many things, so little time. If I hear one more time about Doc going in and out of insanity I think that I will join him being bonkers. For a country that is so dangerous why would anyone keep on letting him stay with the group when he alone accounts for so many times of opening his mouth and putting everyone at risk. Then we have him talking like he is still in the 1800 when in reality he would eventually start to talk like the others (his speeches and rambling are IRRATATING TO NO END). Then we have Wyrthe who keeps on crying about her father that was hung by the towns people and how many times has her mouth opened to the point that Ryan has to keep telling her SHUT THE HELL UP, YOUR GOING TO GET US KILLED. Then we have Ryans spastic/moron son, who thinks that everyday is walking in the park event (his learning curve is nonexistent). Remember on book where they had all their blasters just laying around and when they needed them they had to dig through piles of clothes and garbage to find them.

Enough for now, I am sure that I will get all kinds of grief over this but fear this I will be back to tear apart something that started so good but fell apart even faster then anyone ever imagined.

Do you really think reading more of the books would have improved things for the bad entries? A lazy author is going to be lazy (and there have definitely been some poor, lazy entries in the series of the years).

 I feel that yes, if an author had read 10 of the books (ideally the early books where greater consistency existed) before diving into their own additions that for the most part, characterizations would be more on target and therefore the story would work way better.  They would understand the characters, more common interactions, behaviors, and abilities better.

For me being invested in a long running series, its the characters who really carry it.  When someone writes the characters way out of the norm, I have great difficulty getting into the story.  I can handle some details being wrong occasionally, maybe past events arent quite right here and there, even some of the established facts or details about the world and muties (especially stickies) are terribly off.  But when the characters are way off, I'm just lost, and start to read in a detached, hardly caring manner.

 I am perhaps wrong, but thats my feeling on it.  I understand from my readings here that you have had a lot more interaction with various authors and authorities and understand all the workings far better.  So you are probably more on point that I am.

One thing I've noted too, is that sometimes an author comes in and writes what for me was a real stinker / poor read.  But then the same author has a later book that was almost spot on, and the story and characters were great.  That might have indicated a growing familiarity with the material ?

Things always get ugly when art collides with commerce. Some of the books are just irredeemably bad (I'm looking at you, Skydark Spawn). But there have been a surprising number of gems over the thirty year run of the series, and a more surprising number of gems in just the past few years. I would certainly count the last three books (Desolation Angels, Blood Red Tide, Polestar Omega) as classics. If nothing else, the series is going out on a high note.

Well its encouraging to know that there are a lot of great reads upcoming for me   The last few books I've read through have been a mixed bag.  I just finished Time Castaways, and though I really enjoyed most of the book, it seemed like an editor (?) got involved at the very end and just hacked it up.  I was cruising along enjoying the story, then it just went of the rails it seemed.  Actually there was an unusual amount of jumping about in that story that I was taking in stride at certain points, but the ending is where it got truly messy.

Doc doesn't do it so much in the newer books.

Yea Doc has had no significant lapses in the last few books I've read.  Too bad no one has been able to get in and flesh out his story a bit more.  At one point in the early books there was a hint that Doc knew more about Ryan and the companions than he remembered or realized.  As if he not only had been trawled into Deathlands, but perhaps he had been trawled even farther into the future, lived and learned information of some sort, then time traveled back to the time Ryan found him.  Which might have been part of the explanation for the extreme ravages his body has undergone.  As I think about that there have a lot of really cool story lines and threads that have fallen by the wayside over the books.

I am so glad to hear that! On the other hand tho I flinch at the idea doesn't do it so much. What do you mean by that, he only whacks out once a book compared to what seems like once a chapter or that hopefully he only whacks out every few books. What about the cry baby Mildred who was one years old when her dad was supposedly hung. Almost wish that they would come across a library where she finds out that dear old dad was a thug and hung for committing a crime that goes against her so called righteousness. I am sorry to say that a lot of times I REALLLLLLLLLLLY wish one of them would bite  the dust (especially Dean or Doc or Mildred) as a lesson on how nut to be a f---up.